Conflicted Caregiving: Forgiving Illness

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Blood is thicker than water—and family also has the unique power to push all of our buttons. In this episode two guest share candidly about a beast rarely spoken of: resentment against ourselves or loved ones going through illness.

Karen Krebs is still working to forgive herself and her body through multiple rounds of cancer treatment and graciously accepts on-the-spot coaching from Fred and Eileen.

Barbara Hunt was finally able to overcome her stiff upper lip and emotional denial and recognize underlying resentment at caring for her aging mother. This set her on a path of becoming a forgiveness specialist herself.

This very special episode is inspiration for anyone in the middle of a forgiveness process, and in the end finding the beauty and balance between self-love and being a caretaker.

Karen Krebs

Karen Krebs is a healthcare executive with more than 30 years of experience in behavioral health and medicine, committed to helping individuals and families access treatment, begin recovery, and rebuild their lives. She brings a compassionate, informed perspective to navigating today’s complex healthcare system. With roots in New York and Massachusetts, Karen now resides in West Seattle, where she is a devoted caregiver to her 94-year-old father, who lives with her.

Barbara J Hunt

Barbara J Hunt is a forgiveness specialist and advocate, speaker, workshop leader, global peace visionary, award-winning and bestselling author of “Forgiveness Made Easy: The Revolutionary Guide to Moving Beyond Your Past and Truly Letting Go.” She has over 30 years experience in personal and spiritual development as a mentor, coach and group facilitator. She works in private practice internationally, and is also a musician and singer-songwriter. Connect with Barbara at forgivenessmadeeasy.co.uk and her YouTube channel.

Dr. Fred Luskin

Dr. Fred Luskin is the director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. He’s also the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Forgive for Good is the best-selling self-help book published on the topic of forgiveness. Fred has been interviewed hundreds of times in worldwide media, including The New York Times, O Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Huffington Post, and he has been featured on the Today Show and CBS Morning News. Learn more at fredluskin.com.

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timestamps

00:00 Emotional Shutdown

00:15 Season Two Welcome

00:55 Caregiving and Illness

01:25 Meet Karen and Barbara

02:52 Karen Cancer Wakeup Call

06:05 Caregiver Stress and Resentment

06:56 Self Forgiveness Struggle

09:32 Barbara Young Caregiver Story

11:06 Resentment and Forgiveness Path

12:29 Host Reflections on Caregiving

17:10 Choosing Caregiving

20:30 Tools for Self Forgiveness

21:53 Culture Duty and Boundaries

23:41 Resentment as a Signal

25:23 Freedom and Choice Reframing

27:38 Final Messages and Takeaways

32:46 Closing Thanks and Resources

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Forgiving Illness in Ourselves and Those We Love

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All of us at one point in our lives deal with illness, and for many, it could be a chronic illness or a life-threatening illness. For all of us, we will ultimately face an illness that brings us to the end of our lives. We may also be caregivers for someone dear to us who is grappling with an illness. I had the good fortune of talking to two beautiful women: Karen Krebs, a cancer survivor, and Barbara Hunt, who spent time as a caregiver to her mother as she was dealing with MS.

Karen Krebs’ Story

When Karen was diagnosed with cancer the first time around, it made her step back and recognize the importance of taking care of herself. She had been caring for her 91-year-old mother and now swore to her daughters and herself that she needed to be number 1. After taking a trip to Bali with some friends, Karen had an epiphany. She was going to move from Las Vegas to Seattle to be closer to her adult children and grandson, only to realize she needed to bring her 93-year-old father with her and become his caregiver. The vow to take care of herself first flew out the window. Cancer reared its ugly head once again. Karen, realizing she was still putting herself last, and now dealing with a second bout of cancer, became an emotional wreck. She felt she had failed her body and could not forgive, especially herself.

Cancer Patient Research: Guided Imagery and Music

Karen’s story rang true to me. My mother was dealing with cancer at the time I was in graduate school, working on my doctorate in psychology. Since cancer was such a big part of my life, I became very interested in understanding if there was a certain psychological make-up of individuals dealing with breast cancer. According to the research, there was a particular pattern: Women tended to put other people’s needs first, while often being out of touch with their own. I created what could be described as a musical Rorschach. I asked the study participants to describe the imagery they experienced while listening to music in a relaxed state. I wanted to see if I could differentiate cancer patients from the clinically depressed and the normal population to see if there was any difference in the imagery that was reported. In fact, there was a discernible difference. Cancer patients seem to have fewer images with less emotional content than the other two populations.

I continued to work with these women after the study using a process called Guided Imagery and Music (GIM). Over time, a common theme began to emerge. The women realized that they were so busy taking care of others that they neglected themselves, not recognizing that they even had needs of their own or how badly they had shortchanged themselves. As we began working more deeply, they realized they needed to learn to love and care for themselves, which meant there were times when it was okay not to put others first. For many, this became a very important journey to self forgiveness.

This was Karen’s story. She not only needed to learn how to forgive herself, she also realized that she did not create her cancer, that cancer was not her fault and that her biggest lesson was to stop blaming herself, especially for something that was out of her control.

Barbara Hunt and Her Mother

Barbara Hunt had a very different story. When Barbara was 15, her mother started to have symptoms of multiple sclerosis. By the time she was 18, her mother was in a wheelchair, and by the time Barbara was 20, she left her university to help at home. Barbara was helping with her mother’s basic functions, such as feeding her and helping her to the bathroom. In some regards, it was a bit of a shock for Barbara, and eventually she went back to her university, and her mother was taken to a nursing home, where she spent the last eight years of her life. Barbara felt like she had no mother, even though her mother was still alive.

A while later, Barbara was taking a personal training class, and one of the exercises was listing resentments. A thought crossed Barbara’s mind that she might be holding resentments towards her mother, and then she realized that instead of dealing with her mother’s illness, she shut down and was in emotional denial. She didn’t want to admit that, in fact, she did have resentment. That is what sent Barbara on a journey of forgiveness. Barbara realized that she felt that she wasn’t allowed to express her true feelings, that she had to be the dutiful daughter. This was similar to how Karen was feeling, taking care of her 94-year-old father.

Conflicted Caregiving

So how did both of these women overcome their obstacles to forgiveness, to forgive becoming ill, and for the conflicting emotions that we experience in caring for our loved ones?

What was missing in these narratives is that we have a choice. We don’t have to do something if there is a should or have to. The other side of the coin is when we choose to take care of another human being willingly; that is one of life’s most praiseworthy and noble qualities and needs to be honored. To spend time with someone who is in pain and unable to help themselves is one of the most profound ways to show love for another and can be a beautiful choice. This has so much to do with forgiveness, because once we’ve made a choice, it changes the way we feel about what we are doing. This is when a choice becomes a blessing. When you are clear about the choices you are making, the obstacles to forgiveness lessen.

We also need to look at the meaning we are giving to the event, to watch our thinking about what is taking place, all of which colors the way we feel. These are the cognitive and emotional pieces of our work. This is how we change our attitudes. And it is okay to set boundaries as a loving way to take care of yourself.

The Message in Resentment

It’s at the moment when we feel resentful that we need to remind ourselves of our choices. We can quiet ourselves, listen to our resentments, recognize that they are telling us something we need to hear, and, with that, we can make different choices. With unforgiveness, we make it seem as though we have fewer choices. Recognizing that we have a choice lessens unforgiveness.

This is where forgiveness becomes a spiritual pursuit. It makes us take stock of ourselves and look at our shadow side, recognizing how much is really coming from us. We need to be in the present moment to be aware of our feelings and take responsibility for the difficult things required of us. And to remember forgiveness is a master spiritual discipline and the secret to having a healthy and happy life.

To hear Karen’s and Barbara’s story in thier own words, check out my latest podcast episode, Conflicted Caregiving: Forgiving Illness. Subscribe to Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Forgiveness as the Doorway to Love

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“Your task is not to seek love, but merely to find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” —Rumi

How many of us have blocked off receiving love because of a need to protect ourselves? This is the theme of Lisa Angelini’s story of forgiveness, shared in this month’s podcast. Lisa had gone through a contentious divorce years ago and, more recently, an unexpected abandonment. As a result of these experiences, Lisa began to realize that she had not only blocked herself off from receiving romantic love but also blocked connections with others because of a need to protect herself from being hurt. Lisa also had an issue with trust—not only with other people but also with herself.

Insights From a Friend

After her divorce, Lisa was sitting with a friend when her friend said, “I don’t know who you are.” Lisa thought at the time that she was an open book: “Just the Italian girl from New York with a big personality.”

Her friend saw things differently: Thinking that you are open with a big personality is very different from being truly authentic and open-hearted. “Lisa, you have so many walls up, brick walls, big, big brick walls with barbed wire,” said her friend. “You have to let someone in.” The last thing Lisa wanted to hear from someone, especially when dealing with a painful moment in her life, is that maybe she should look at things differently. Yet, this is where her journey of forgiveness began. It was a journey that took some time and unfolded in many ways.

A Tale of Two Grandmothers

Growing up, Lisa—like many of us—didn’t have much modeling for forgiveness, but she certainly had modeling for what it looks like when there was unforgiveness. It was her fiery grandmother who first influenced the way she thought about forgiveness. When that grandmother divorced unexpectedly, she held onto resentment for a very long time, continually spewing negativity about her ex. For Lisa, that fire looked very powerful. This pants-wearing, go-get-’em grandmother felt good to Lisa. And that is who Lisa wanted to emulate. She didn’t know what true forgiveness looked like.

It was only when she started working through her own process that Lisa realized she didn’t want to hear any negativity, especially about her ex. She wanted to learn how to let go. She told others, “I’m healing. That’s the father of my children, and I’m going to leave it there as I work through this. That’s not helpful. People think it’s supportive to keep that energy going and add the fuel to the fire.” But for Lisa, it was a constant reminder of all the things and all the hurt that she no longer wanted to be connected to. Only now does Lisa recognize that her other grandmother, a sweet, forgiving, and spiritual woman, was a great teacher—though at the time she saw her kindness and ability to forgive as weakness rather than a source of power.

Yet Another Opportunity to Forgive

Forgiveness isn’t about one-and-done. Life brings on many opportunities for forgiveness, and for Lisa, more was yet to come. She entered into a relationship that suddenly took a hard left and turned her life upside down. It started out as a beautiful soul-connected relationship. Lisa’s spiritual home was Scotland, where he happened to live, and as things progressed over a couple of years, Lisa thought she would live there. And then it suddenly fell apart, seemingly in the snap of a finger.

Lisa didn’t know she’d get to practice forgiveness over and over again through life. She just thought you mastered it once, and that’s it. No, not so. Lisa was in shock, dealing with themes of betrayal and dishonesty. First, she wanted to make sense of things and rationally figure out what she missed—but there was no escaping the “messy middle,” the point in a forgiveness process where we acknowledge the emotional mess we find ourselves in.

Lisa expected that her spiritual practice, therapy and training would protect her from life, only to recognize that it was a form of defensiveness, a weapon against herself. Lisa knew forgiveness takes time, but she considered herself spiritually advanced, so she could get through this quickly. Surprise, surprise, that wasn’t the case. Lisa first denied that she was angry, but with help from a mentor over a three-day process, the anger began to erupt, uncovering the painful grief and all the emotional layers she needed to engage with to arrive at true forgiveness. When we’re honest with ourselves and work through all these layers, that’s where forgiveness isn’t just a pragmatic experience of letting go: It can become transformational. When we get to the point where we truly wish the other person well, we become free. And inside Lisa’s head, when she finally forgave this man, her mind became quieter, calmer, and more peaceful with much less thought.

Gems of Forgiveness

Perhaps learning to forgive is part of our life’s path. All of us have these experiences, and if we can learn from them, we may get a deeper sense of who we are and perhaps how we can really help others. As Nietzsche once said, “Amor fati.” Love your fate. None of us wants to go through painful experiences, yet if you can stick with the forgiveness process and get to the other side, you might just look back and realize there was a gem there.

For everyone, that gem will be different. It might be a deeper connection with your soul, that creative force outside us that can bring greater clarity and wisdom to our lives. You may learn to trust more and be more open to life. You may have a change of outlook, which helps you see people differently and more compassionately, especially for those who are going through similar struggles. And perhaps we grow in humility, accepting that we are human beings, and recognize there are things we’re all going to struggle with and that people do shocking things. If people could have done better, they would have, and when we can recognize that and accept it, we are given the greatest gift of all: learning about unconditional love. And that’s true peace.

To hear Lisa Angelini’s story in her own words, check out my latest podcast episode, “A Sudden Disorienting Heartbreak: Lisa Angelini.” Subscribe to Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Shedding the Victim Story: Lyndon Harris on Forgiveness After 9/11

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Welcome to Season 2 of Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness, with a new name, a new focus and a new co-host, Fred Luskin. Our first guest is Lyndon Harris. Lyndon was an Episcopal priest in New York City when his life after 9/11 fell apart. He dealt with PTSD, personal injustice, divorce, and losing his house — yet until he hit rock bottom, he never thought about forgiveness. When he finally did, forgiveness changed his life in the most amazing way.

Lyndon Harris

Lyndon Harris is a former Episcopal priest, whose journey toward forgiveness began in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. His work was covered widely in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and a host of others. But in the aftermath of 9/11, Lyndon’s life fell apart. Forgiveness became the essential tool for reclaiming his life. Harris is a forgiveness teacher now and has been invited to offer keynotes and workshops around the world. He is co-author, with Dr. Luskin of the Forgive for Good Recovery Workbook.

Learn more at lyndonharris.com

Pre-order Lyndon’s memoir, release date June 2026:

Forgiveness at Ground Zero: A Journey of Service, Loss, and Redemption after 9/11

Dr. Fred Luskin

Dr. Fred Luskin is the director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. He’s also the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Forgive for Good is the best-selling self-help book published on the topic of forgiveness. Fred has been interviewed hundreds of times in worldwide media, including The New York Times, O Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Huffington Post, and he has been featured on the Today Show and CBS Morning News. Learn more at fredluskin.com.

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timestamps

00:00 Forgiving Imperfection

00:14 Season Two Kickoff

00:49 Meet Fred and Lyndon

02:55 Lyndon Before 9 11

04:40 Witnessing the Attacks

07:56 St. Pauls Relief Mission

09:16 Conflict and Resignation

12:31 Bitterness and Revenge

15:47 Life Falls Apart

18:47 Rock Bottom and Gratitude

22:31 Self Forgiveness Breakthrough

26:35 New Mission and Love

28:41 Advice for the Stuck

30:13 What Forgiveness Means Now

32:33 Closing and Resources

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From Revenge Fantasies to Forgiveness: Letting Go of Anger After 9/11

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“We come to spiritual depth in many ways, but two surefire ways to get there are love and great suffering.” —Richard Rohr

In April 2001, Lyndon Harris, a former Episcopal priest, was asked by Trinity Church in lower Manhattan to develop a new church community at the historic Saint Paul’s Chapel, where George Washington had often prayed. Then the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center took place September 11, which changed everything for the church and for Lyndon. As he stood at the foot of the South Tower, he watched the building collapse following the impact of the hijacked plane, and felt the fear that seared the city streets. The following day, Lyndon worked at the site to help with the search and rescue mission and performed last rites on the bodies that were recovered. Then he opened the church, which became a support center for first responders.

9/11 Relief Operation

At the mission, Lyndon worked tirelessly, helping thousands of rescue workers and their families endure the tragedy of 9/11. Yet something else was also beginning to bubble up behind the scenes: a lack of support from his superiors for the hardships of his work at the church. Resentment grew within Lyndon, along with the significant trauma he was experiencing because of 9/11. While he was working 12-hour shifts, his supervisor and the people he reported to were not at St. Paul’s or even in New York City. Lyndon was doing things he didn’t have the authority to do, yet he persisted, convinced he was doing the right thing, which created a conflict. After serving 240 days and breathing in black, polluted air, he resigned, burning all his bridges. Lyndon was clearly coming from a heartfelt place, tending to volunteers and human remains while experiencing his own trauma and butting up against administrative issues and bureaucracy.

The Poison of Unforgiveness

Lyndon became deeply entrenched in being right—he wondered why his superiors didn’t see what the Gospel commanded, and held on to many negative feelings. As Nelson Mandela once said, it was like “drinking poison and waiting for someone else to die,” and for Lyndon, it was the sweetest Kool-Aid he ever had in his life. In that moment, he had no interest in forgiveness. He, like so many of us, was nursing his revenge fantasy. Then, in a phone call, someone suggested that he needed to forgive these guys. Lyndon shouted back, slammed down the phone and threw it against the wall. Someone offered help, and all he could think was, “Don’t you know what they did to me?”—the epitome of unforgiveness.

This is where many of us get stuck. We hold onto our self-pity and need to be right. Lyndon wanted revenge of the worst kind. After resigning from the church, Lyndon sank into depression, left his marriage, lost his job, and soon after lost his house. He was running from the pain he couldn’t face. People were happy to play along, thinking they were being supportive—but that only reinforced Lyndon’s victim narrative, a story that takes away our power. Yet when people suggest forgiveness, there is usually resistance.  People hold tight to being a victim, not realizing that their claim to victimhood is claiming their life.

Yes, Lyndon was treated badly, and he did suffer, in part, because of his own bad choices. He did go through real pain and difficulty. It took a total falling apart for him to realize he couldn’t do this anymore, and he reached a point when he asked himself: “What else can I do?” It was only then that Lyndon began to entertain the thought of forgiveness.

From Helplessness to Agency Through Gratitude

Lyndon had an unshakeable faith that God still had a role for him, even with the mess he had made, and that he had to dig deep into his heart and soul to find the courage to face what he had done. He realized he had to take responsibility for his life, and little by little, he started to reclaim it. When he really took that to heart, he began to think about what he was grateful for and the blessings he had in his life. He was lucky to be alive—after all, so many people were killed in his vicinity the morning of 9/11, and he was still standing. Gratitude helped him move from helplessness to agency, from blame to taking responsibility. This is gratitude’s power. When we start feeling love and gratitude, we can feel the energy shift in our bodies and in our thinking. This is what forgiveness is about. We choose to see the world from a different perspective; one based on greater understanding.

Permission to Grieve and Make Mistakes

Opening his heart to gratitude enabled Lyndon to forgive himself. His belief and expectation—especially for not being perfect as an Episcopal priest—was that he couldn’t make a mistake. When Lyndon could finally forgive himself, he could own his humanity and give himself permission to grieve. He had so much anger, which he later realized was just a disguise for grief. He accepted that he makes mistakes like everyone else, and he needed to be kind to himself. He realized he could take responsibility for his mistakes, care for himself, embrace his future, and stop being miserable about the past. When he was able to be kind to himself, he found that he could be a whole lot kinder to others for their mistakes.

The irony is that when Lyndon left the priesthood, he truly became the priest he wanted to be. It took him a long time to get to that place, but as Lyndon said himself, quoting Nietzsche, we should be lovers of our fate. At first, Lyndon wasn’t so sure about that, but now that he has gotten to the other side, his fate has become easier to love—and that is the power of forgiveness.

To hear Lyndon Harris’ story in his own words, check out my latest podcast episode, Shedding the Victim Story: Lyndon Harris on Forgiveness After 9/11. Subscribe to Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to Season 2! Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness

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I’m thrilled to announce we’re just days away from the season 2 kick-off of my podcast! To reflect a new focus on forgiveness in our daily lives, the title is now “Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness,” and I’m delighted to have Dr. Fred Luskin as my co-host. Director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects and the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Fred is a true expert on forgiving spouses, parents, children, friends, co-workers, bosses — and even ourselves.

We have a fresh line-up of interviews with more forgiveness leaders and forgiveness stories, as well as normal people struggling to forgive. For the first time ever, Fred and I will be offering forgiveness coaching on the podcast. Our first guest is Lyndon Harris, who was an Episcopal priest in New York City when his life after 9/11 fell apart. Listen to this quick teaser with a few snippets from the first episode!

Dr. Fred Luskin

Dr. Fred Luskin is the director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. He’s also the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Forgive for Good is the best-selling self-help book published on the topic of forgiveness. Fred has been interviewed hundreds of times in worldwide media, including The New York Times, O Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Huffington Post, and he has been featured on the Today Show and CBS Morning News. Learn more at fredluskin.com.

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timestamps

00:00 We Are More Than Our Mistakes

00:21 Podcast Welcome

01:01 What Forgiveness Feels Like

01:40 Stories and Takeaways

02:00 Join the Journey

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I want to forgive, but don’t know where to start.

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When is anger appropriate? How does humility play a part in forgiveness? What about those who cling to revenge? Is there an optimal time for forgiveness? How do I deal with guilt? When do I need to set a healthy boundary? How do we heal trauma?

The participants in this conversation did not hold back. Through their tough and insightful questions we had a rich dialogue about the deep emotional processing involved in forgiving. I’m honored to share excerpts from my conversation with Mary Noble of Feminenza International and participants of the Erasmus+ project “A Resilient Life,” where I answer their questions about all the ways forgiveness can release emotional burdens and lead to healing, hope, resilience, and freedom.

This was such a wide-ranging conversation with so many wonderful forgiveness stories — don’t miss the complete video. This conversation explores the vital role forgiveness plays in our personal healing and features a rich dialogue with participants from Kenya, Kosovo, Israel, and across Europe.

FEMINENZA INTERNATIONAL

Feminenza International is a global non-profit organization focused on women’s development, trauma healing, and education in forgiveness co-founded by Mary Noble, who has been a guest of mine in previous episodes.

For more information about Feminenza programs reach out to contactus@feminenza.org

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timecodes

00:00  Forgiveness is inner healing, not about the other person

01:30  Meet Dr. Eileen Borris and Mary Noble

03:16  Revenge: The “revenge story” exercise and grieving what was lost

05:04  What forgiveness is—and isn’t

05:44  Humility and anger

08:23  Trauma healing and forgiveness timing

11:47  Stories of transformation

16:12  “I want to forgive, but where do i start?”

18:21  From pragmatic to spiritual: deeper layers of forgiveness

25:57  Hope vs. authoritarianism

27:43  Everyday forgiveness: boundaries, verbal abuse, and the guilt cycle

31:16  Closing and season 2 preview: New co-host and new focus

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Forgiveness: The Highest Form of Love

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February is a month people are thinking about love. There are all types of love — from the love of your pet to a best friend to the romantic love towards your significant other. But the highest form of love is that of forgiveness. Forgiveness teaches us about unconditional love. It is not only loving those who are easy to love and who are close to us, but it allows us to love those who are opposite from us and hold views different from us — possibly even those who have done great harm to us.

It is through forgiveness that we learn about ourselves. We become aware of the lens we choose to see the world through, recognizing that what we see in others is what is so hard for us to see within ourselves. When we own that, we are beginning to see someone else in a different light, a more forgiving light. Even when taking a very small step, this begins to open our hearts and light a spark of love within ourselves that touches a deeper love: that of our humanity. It goes directly to the unity that connects all of us — to a higher awareness of the truth of who we are — human beings coming from the same creative source and whose inner being is a spiritual essence.

To learn to love deeply requires forgiveness to become a practice. Most people think of forgiveness as a one-time event. But speak to someone who has had a very painful experience, yet sincerely wanted to let go of their anger and pain and chose forgiveness. They will tell you it was a process, and it took time to work through the grief to get to the other side and to finally be able to forgive. It is this kind of commitment to the work of forgiveness that will change us. And it is this kind of work which helps us shift into a higher form of consciousness where our default is not anger or the need for revenge, but wanting to understand where this person is coming from, and what was the psychological landscape that brought this person to where he or she is today. This kind of thinking will help us see our world with greater understanding, compassion, empathy, and, yes, possibly love for what we all struggle with: the human condition. What greater love is there than giving someone total acceptance of who we are as human beings, recognizing that within all of us is a spiritual being, however deeply buried that may be. This is the essence of deeply held love.

The poet Alexander Pope once wrote, “To err is human, to forgive divine.” Forgiveness is one of the most difficult things we are asked to do, and at times it can feel impossible. Yet even in today’s world, where we hear so much talk about revenge and retribution, some people manage to forgive with amazing grace.

A Forgiveness Story: The Amish Community at Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania

One such story, which has touched many of us, happened on October 2, 2005, when Carl Roberts entered a one-room schoolhouse in the Amish community of Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania. He lined up 11 young girls and shot them at point-blank range. Roberts killed five of the girls and then killed himself. In an amazing act of courage the oldest girl, 13-year-old Marian Fisher asked Roberts to shoot her first. She hoped that she could spare the lives of the younger girls. And what was even more remarkable was that, just a few hours after the shooting, an Amish neighbor went to the Roberts family to comfort them and to offer forgiveness.

A grandfather of one of the girls killed was telling the boys to forgive what had just happened as they prepared the body of one of the little girls for burial. Five days later the families who lost their daughters attended the funeral of the man who had killed them. They went not in anger or for retribution, but to comfort the family and let them know that all was forgiven.

How were the Amish able to forgive? It was because the Amish have an enormous capacity to see things differently. Forgiveness is woven into the fabric of the Amish way of life. The more we are willing to entertain the thought of forgiveness, the more we, too, can experience it. The Amish never lost sight of the fact that, above all else, Roberts was a human being. They did not vilify him, and they were able to see beyond Robert’s actions and recognize not only his weaknesses but his goodness. They were able to see beyond their egos to what can be called seeing with spiritual sight. This gave the Amish the ability to sympathize with his family for their loss and move forward with compassion and not vengeful hate. This is one of the keys to learning how to forgive, looking past the outer behavior and understanding there is a spiritual essence within all of us.

Forgiveness as Grace and Healing

Forgiveness is not about letting someone off the hook. It is about your personal inner healing. It is about being able to tell your story, to listen to the wisdom of what your anger has to say and recognizing there is more to the story. On a deeper level it is about changing the way we think, which includes embracing our spiritual nature and the spiritual nature of even those who have hurt us. The process of forgiveness helps us to understand the pain and suffering of others, especially when we can say, “Why them?” instead of “Why me?” What has happened in their lives which has made them who they are today?

As we struggle with our own difficulties in being able to forgive, we also open ourselves up to a benevolent force which is far more powerful than we could ever be. This creative force, that is sometimes experienced as grace, is that inexplicable power which comes from something beyond us. This power gives us the ability to forgive, even when we feel within our hearts forgiveness is humanly impossible. When it happens, you can feel the power and presence of a higher intervention which transforms your relationships as you experience an outpouring of this inexplicable love.

This is the love which enabled the Amish to pray for everyone involved in what took place on October 2, not only for the innocent little girls who got killed and those still to recover, but for the killer himself. They knew expressing love would bring about healing for all those concerned, whereas taking on the same resentment as the attacker would only support evil and allow it to spread.

As we think about what it means to love and be loved this month, ask yourself — are you ready to embark on a journey which may be difficult at times but which can give you something that is a most precious gift: love itself. For if you really think about why we are here it is not necessarily to amass wealth or power, but to love and be loved.

She Forgave Her Ex

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At 33, Mary Noble’s world shattered—her husband suddenly left her for another woman. Pain and shock ruled for months, until one night a vivid dream sparked an unexpected epiphany: Forgiveness. That single word shifted everything and she forgave him. “It was this feeling of grace,” she recalls. Mary spent the next 20 years on a journey to understanding what it really means to forgive, which led her around the globe to her work in Kenya.

Mary Noble

Mary Noble is the co-founder and CEO of Feminenza, a nonprofit organization where she creates and leads training programs in forgiveness. Enjoy this reboot of her episode as we prepare to do a deep dive on personal forgiveness in 2026. Mary was a joy to interview and so transparent about finding herself in one of the most challenging situations. Her story of forgiving someone close to her is an inspiration for all of us.

Contact Mary

Email: forgiveness@feminenza.org

Feminenza: https://feminenza.org

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Political Forgiveness

00:33 Introducing Antti Pentikainen

00:45 Life in War Zones

02:33 Transition to Academia and US Advisory Role

03:55 The Concept of Sacrifice

08:56 Spiritual Injury and Healing

15:14 Truth, Racial Healing, and Transformation

24:35 The Role of Art and Community in Healing

28:06 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Forgiving Our Exes

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January is a natural time for personal reflection, renewal, and practicing forgiveness of those close to us. The new year offers an opportunity to let go of past hurts and self-blame and move forward with a new perspective. As Fred Luskin and I prepare to launch season 2 of the podcast focusing on personal forgiveness, I’m revisiting this story from season 1 because it’s such a moving example of one woman’s personal journey finding freedom after betrayal.

Forgiveness can enter our lives in strange ways. For Mary Noble she was consumed with anger and pain when one day her husband announced that he was leaving her for another woman. Mary, founder and CEO of Feminenza, a nonprofit organization where Mary gives training programs in forgiveness, did not always support the belief in forgiveness. She was in shock over the end of her marriage—didn’t even see it coming. And for six months she was filled with anguish.

Last summer in an episode of “Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace,” I interviewed Mary, who shared a dream that her husband came back, and in the dream Mary knew they were going through all the difficulties they had put each other through yet again. When Mary woke up, she realized that she needed to move on.

A Moment of Grace

During the course of that day the word forgiveness “landed” in Mary. In her heart of hearts, she wanted her life back. She wanted to be free of her anger, to forgive her ex and his lover. At that moment of truly wanting to let go, she felt something inside of her—as though a miracle had happened, a moment of grace where the anger totally dissipated, replaced by feelings of joy. Mary realized this was not about her ex, it was about her inner healing. She recognized that there was something greater going on: An interior renovation took place where she was able to totally let go of her pain. In her sincere desire to let go of her anger and resentment Mary experienced the miracle of forgiveness, and it can happen to anyone.

Forgiving Our Exes, Forgiving Our Enemies

This experience was so powerful that it stayed with Mary. Twenty years later, as she was developing programs for Feminenza, the issue of forgiveness kept coming up. This inspired Mary to engage in a two-year study of forgiveness, asking herself questions such as, “Why should we forgive?” and “What about the perpetrator.” She realized that as a society, as a human race, the lack of forgiveness is enshrined in what we consider the right way to go: vendettas, tit for tat, sweet revenge—the things we believe are okay to do.

All of this affects our ability as a human race to evolve, to become better human beings. Then a Congolese pastor who worked at the United Nations sat down with Mary and pulled out pictures of mutilated bodies. Mary asked what was she looking at and he replied, “You’re looking at the result of the civil war in the Congo and the lack of forgiveness. Generation after generation, leader after leader, each one comes into power and massacres everyone who was there before.” Then the pastor said, “I think, Mary, forgiveness is the only way out of this.”

So how do we heal what has been passed down from generation to generation? Forgiveness is about the art of healing. This is what Mary was doing—creating a certain ecology in her workshops that is so warm and loving that it provided the space and the opportunity for people to release at least some of what they were holding on to.

Peeling the Layers

When we are willing to engage in a forgiveness process and are willing to do the work, it’s like peeling the layers of an onion. We begin to deal with our anger, our fear, our guilt. We give ourselves permission to mourn. And then we can begin to release pain and sorrow, and in that releasing we begin to remove blocks to the ability to love. That’s the profoundness of forgiveness. We don’t necessarily think about it in that way, but there are many levels of forgiveness from the pragmatic, letting go of pain and suffering, to the sublime, knowing grace and the face of God.

Through the work of forgiveness, we develop the ability to connect with our humanity. That interconnectedness can become very powerful—that what I see in you is what I also know is in me, because we are all part of the human condition. As we go deeper into the forgiveness process, we begin to understand what it really means to love: I can see you in your entirety. The deeper we begin to recognize what it means to be human and get in touch with our own humanity, the more we peel off those layers, the more we are also learning about what real love is. And if we can get to a place of being able to love someone—even though they may have harmed us deeply—that is the highest form of love we will ever really know.

To hear Mary’s stories in her own words, listen to this reboot of her episode from Season 1: She Forgave Her Ex. To hear more stories of personal forgiveness, tune into my podcast this spring for Season 2: Personal Forgiveness. Find “Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.