He Broke Free From Chronic Pain: David Hanscom, MD

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In 1990 David Hanscom was a fearless spine surgeon when he started developing  migraine headaches, ringing in the ears, skin rashes, burning feet, anxiety, depression and full-blown OCD. He bounced around the medical system for 15 years before finally learning to shift his own body chemistry from sustained threat physiology to a sense of safety and rewiring the brain’s response to pain. One watershed moment was discovering Fred Luskin’s book, Forgive for Good, and since then David has helped hundreds of patients heal from pain, migraines, insomnia, anxiety, depression, PTSD, and many other chronic symptoms—without surgery.

This was a really special conversation for Fred and I, and we hope you enjoy listening as much as we did recording it.

David Hanscom, MD

David Hanscom, MD, practiced complex orthopedic spine surgery for 32 years. He left his practice in Seattle, Washington, to share his insights on overcoming chronic mental and physical pain, which developed from his 15-year personal struggle. Emerging from this ordeal, he realized that mental pain was the most significant issue: anxiety is the pain. David just released a new book, Calm Your Body, Heal Your Mind and his self-directed action plan is available at thedocjourney.com. David is an active speaker, author, and consultant. His work and resources can be accessed at backincontrol.com.

Dr. Fred Luskin

Dr. Fred Luskin is the director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. He’s also the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Forgive for Good is the best-selling self-help book published on the topic of forgiveness. Fred has been interviewed hundreds of times in worldwide media, including The New York Times, O Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Huffington Post, and he has been featured on the Today Show and CBS Morning News. Learn more at fredluskin.com.

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timestamps

00:00 Anger The Threshold

00:17 Podcast Welcome And Guest

02:49 David’s Health Collapse

04:42 Threat Physiology Explained

05:40 Facing Victimhood And Anger

07:59 Thoughts Suppression And Control

09:47 Why He Challenged Spine Surgery

11:51 Self Induced Deep Healing

16:12 Calm Your Body Heal Your Mind

18:16 Tools Awareness And No Pain Talk

27:03 Vulnerability Anxiety And Letting Go

29:40 Resources Contact And Closing

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Don’t Want Surgery? Practice Forgiveness.

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Stress is not “all in your head.” Emotional states like anxiety and anger are whole-body experiences that can intensify pain, hinder coping, and complicate chronic illness. Recently, I spoke with David Hanscom, MD, an orthopedic surgeon who performed complex spine surgeries for thirty-two years. But everything changed when his own health began to fail. After developing 17 debilitating physical ailments, David was visibly suffering, hitting rock bottom health-wise, which forced him to find out why this was happening to him. Doing some deep soul searching, he recognized that he was totally out of touch with his emotional life, specifically his repressed anger. When he finally recognized the importance of facing his anger, it became the pivotal turning point in his remarkable recovery.

Physical Alarm Signals and Threat Physiology

As David began researching the effects of chronic stress, he realized that repressed emotions are often more physically damaging than expressed ones. Unresolved psychological pain locks our nervous system into a state of what he calls “threat physiology.” He learned that anxiety and anger are not merely psychological issues; they are physical alarm signals going off because the body senses danger. The anatomy of unresolved anger explains how threat physiology, activated by stress or emotional injury, triggers survival responses like fight-or-flight. Unresolved anger is also a by-product of unforgiveness, which got David thinking about the possibilities that forgiveness could offer in healing the mind and the body. The pieces of what was happening were beginning to fit together. Because the central nervous system is a key driver of chronic pain fueled by repressed emotions, David realized that unless this underlying physiological threat is addressed, surgeries are seldom successful. In fact, he concluded that many spine surgeries being performed today are unnecessary.

It took a lot of integrity to step back from his medical practice, but he could not ignore what his personal experience taught him. This led to the development of a self-directed healing approach he called the DOC (Direct Your Own Care) Journey, grounded in the idea that true healing requires attention to both mind and body. Fundamental to this thinking is the science of neuroplasticity, the brain’s ability to constantly rewire itself in response to our experiences and thoughts. When we are continually angry, our brains literally wire together to remain in a state of heightened threat and pain.

Forgiveness: Flipping the Switch to the Body’s Alarm System

Neuroplasticity, which tells us “neurons that fire together wire together,” can also be said to be true with forgiveness, and this is where forgiveness becomes a profound medical intervention. When we understand this, forgiveness is not merely a moral virtue but a practical tool for rewiring the brain. When we ruminate on our “grievance stories,” we reinforce the neural circuits of stress. But by actively practicing forgiveness and consciously changing the channel in our thoughts, we stop feeding those threat pathways and start creating new ones by redirecting them. Forgiveness acts as the ultimate signal to the nervous system that the danger has passed, turning off the body’s alarm system so that deep physical healing can finally begin.

Neuroscience backs up what David discovered through his own healing. When we hold onto anger, that emotion is registered in the amygdala—the brain’s emotional center—keeping the body locked in threat physiology. But research also shows that when we actively practice forgiveness, the brain’s frontal cortex steps in, quieting emotional responses and physically relaxing the body. Even more remarkably, recent brain imaging studies suggest that forgiveness doesn’t suppress painful memories: it updates them, making the memory itself feel less emotionally charged over time.

Facing Anger on the Path to Recovery and Forgiveness

This was David’s lived experience. As he worked on his own process of forgiveness, he, too, experienced healing. David realized that he had repressed a lot of his emotions growing up—especially anger—and as he walked down his own path to recovery, he finally got in touch with the anger he’d been avoiding. Facing his anger became one of the most profound outcomes of his healing process. This actually helped him to forgive his own mother, who he finally acknowledged was very abusive, and in the process found compassion for her, recognizing she was suffering too. It was this work that helped him shift from what he called “an angry zealot to more of a compassionate crusader,” fueling the desire that led him to leave surgery behind and help thousands of chronic pain patients instead.

Healing has its own way of bringing us many gifts if we are open to them. David realized forgiveness has the power to help with one of the most difficult aspects of our healing process: calming our nervous system. He understood that, as part of the forgiveness process, we learn to change our mindset, which in turn helps us let go of our personal emotional burden. This becomes a critical factor in calming not only our minds but also our bodies. His method follows a process that, in many respects, parallels the process of forgiveness. In learning to forgive, we have to first get in touch with what we are feeling. We have to own it and, in the process, learn how to calm ourselves down. David speaks of separating ourselves from old programming. Changing the channel, changing our mindset, is what the forgiveness process can bring to the table, which leads us to the most important step of letting go of our grievances to help our bodies return to balance and a healthy homeostasis.

To hear David Hanscom’s story in his own words, check out my latest podcast episode, He Broke Free From Chronic Pain. Subscribe to Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Breaking the Silence: Childhood Sexual Abuse and Forgiveness

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When Andy Woodward showed remarkable talent for football as a boy, it brought him to the attention of the coach who sexually abused him for years. After bottling up his emotions and suffering panic attacks on the football pitch, Andy made the extraordinary journey from silence to speaking out on a public stage. How did he find the courage to confront a powerful coach and a prominent football organization in the UK? In this podcast Andy talks about transforming pain through the practice of forgiveness.

Andy Woodward

Andy Woodward blew the whistle on the sexual abuse of junior players in British football in 2016. His story helped spark a global conversation about the misuse of authority and trust in sports, and gave a voice to countless survivors who needed to be heard. Through his book Position of Trust and the BBC drama Floodlights, Andy is inspiring people worldwide with the message that healing is possible and each of us can help create a safer future.

Learn more about Andy

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Andy’s book: “Position of Trust”

BBC drama: “Floodlights”

Dr. Fred Luskin

Dr. Fred Luskin is the director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. He’s also the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Forgive for Good is the best-selling self-help book published on the topic of forgiveness. Fred has been interviewed hundreds of times in worldwide media, including The New York Times, O Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Huffington Post, and he has been featured on the Today Show and CBS Morning News. Learn more at fredluskin.com.

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timestamps

00:00 Heart of Peace

00:15 Meet Andy Woodward

01:58 Football Dream Turns Dark

03:30 Trapped in Systemic Abuse

06:08 Aftermath and Breaking Silence

10:02 From Exposure to Forgiveness

13:13 Spirituality and Purpose

22:10 Energy Balance Practices

25:38 Final Takeaways and Closing

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Overcoming Sexual Abuse: Andy Woodward

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It’s not very often that we meet someone who, through incredible pain and suffering, comes out on the other side as a completely changed human being, with a heart filled with compassion. This is the story of Andy Woodward, who from the age of 11 was sexually abused by his football coach, Barry Bennell.

From a young age Andy dreamed of a football career in Great Britain, and Bennell recognized Andy’s talent and gained his family’s trust, slowly grooming all of them. Between the ages of 11 and 15, Bennell repeatedly sexually abused Andy using emotional blackmail and threats of ruining Andy’s football career to maintain control, guaranteeing that Andy would remain silent. Finally, at age 43, Andy gained the courage to tell his story to The Guardian and freed himself from the secret—“the massive, horrible burden” that shaped his life.

When Andy’s story went public, it prompted many more men to come forward with their own stories of sexual exploitation as young players. The scandal was the darkest chapter in Britain’s football history, and it has triggered an international movement exposing widespread child abuse in football. As for Andy, he was silenced, and it took him many years of self-healing and acceptance to speak again. It was his spirituality that became his true healing process to forgive, accept, and maintain his love for humanity, and to experience peace in his own life.

Accessing Peace and the Untouched Part in All of Us

Forgiveness taught Andy many lessons, but in the simplest terms Andy is here to remind us that no matter how much pain we’ve suffered, there’s another part of us that is not touched or corroded by a traumatic experience. He also reminds us that our pain is no more special or worse than the suffering other people experience, that we don’t have to stay stuck in feeling like a victim. It is through our choices that we become empowered. The essence of forgiveness teaches us that there’s a part of each of us that is separate from this pain and separate from bad treatment. We all have wounds, and the cure is some presence-centered touch of something deeper. This part is deeper than our pain. If we can get to that place within ourselves—which is what forgiveness does for us—we can know what peace truly is. Once we experience it, we can always access it. It’s always there.

Shining a Light Where Others Dare Not Go

One of the most striking things about Andy’s story is that, through immense pain and suffering, he found purpose. He told his story so others could escape suffering. He shone a light where others dare not go. Andy spoke of his whistleblowing as his true “destiny” and developed a deeply resilient framework for his survival. His survival led to the belief that his suffering served a much higher purpose, which helped him let go of a victim mentality and adopt the view that everything that happens in our lives can serve a higher purpose if we choose to recognize it.

As Andy continued his healing journey, he began to develop his own personal philosophy, which he described as “heart energy.” He understands health and healing through the lens of energy and frequency. He sees the human heart not just as a muscle but as an energetic organ whose frequency changes with our emotional state. This is not just New Age thinking. For Andy, it was a deeply personal way of coping and a means of establishing a system of spiritual boundaries for his survival, especially amid the ongoing fallout from being a whistleblower. He used his philosophy to motivate himself and to help him focus not on bitterness, but on helping others. And on those difficult days, Andy’s spiritual outlook, focused on hope, faith, and love, kept his spiritual frequency high, which no one could take away from him.

Heart Coherency and Balance

Research from organizations like the HeartMath Institute shows that when we shift into states such as compassion, gratitude, and forgiveness, our heart rhythms change. These changes correspond to more coherent, balanced physiological states, which in turn affect how we think, feel, and relate to others. This implies that when we choose forgiveness, we are not just changing our thinking; we are also changing the frequency of our hearts. The implication can be profound. We become more balanced energetically, physically, mentally, and spiritually. Andy’s focus on compassion, energy frequencies, and “heart in action” provides a real-world illustration of the biological and emotional models pioneered by the HeartMath Institute.

The Heart as an Antenna to Non-Local Consciousness

There is much that can be said about this. There is a relationship between raising your energy frequency, the act of forgiveness, and something called non-local consciousness, a term used to define consciousness as a unifying, boundless field that exists beyond the constraints of time and space. Accordingly, our heart’s electromagnetic field acts as an antenna. When we are in an unforgiving place, our field becomes “static,” and we are trapped in our ego state of mind, feeling isolated and separated from our world. We can shift this state through forgiveness.

Pioneers in quantum consciousness such as astronaut Edgar Mitchell and Dr. Joe Dispenza tell us that raising our frequency brings our brain and heart into a coherent state. This is when we can tap into non-local consciousness and our interconnectedness with one another. In other words, as we raise our frequency through the practice of forgiveness, compassion, or acts of kindness and experience nonlocal consciousness, we are not just healing ourselves: we are also positively affecting the collective frequency. This was the mechanics behind Andy’s actions. He believes that when one man speaks with pure honesty, that energetic frequency resonates with other survivors, permitting them to safely release their shame.

By Andy’s courage in speaking the unshakeable wave of truth to alleviate the suffering of others, he was operating from a highly coherent, high-frequency state of authenticity, which effectively altered the frequency of the environment, initiating a massive, historic ripple effect that allowed hundreds of other survivors to resonate with his courage and find their own voices.

To hear Andy Woodward’s story in his own words, check out my latest podcast episode, “Breaking the Silence: Childhood Sexual Abuse and Forgiveness.” Subscribe to “Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Borderline Mothers, Abusive Fathers. How Do Daughters Survive?

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A mother is the anchor of her child’s life. By acting as a role model and providing a solid base of support, she nurtures and helps her children grow from total dependence to beautifully independent adults. But what if your mother has a borderline personality disorder? What if she rages out of control and catches you in a sea of emotion? Then the dance begins. You want the closeness, and she pushes you away. She then draws you in, and at times you cannot break away. So much drama, so much trauma, and so much forgiveness needed.

Borderline Mothers and Parva’s Story

It is a difficult thing to carry the belief that, at times, your mother hated you and took those feelings with her to her grave. This was Parva Moshiri’s story. As a child, how can you take responsibility for a mother? How can you heal and forgive a mother when you realize you don’t have a mother? It is particularly difficult to forgive a parent who wasn’t able to parent and is so capable of being cruel. Yet despite her mother’s behavior, Parva was her caretaker in later years.

In Parva’s case, she never entertained the thought of forgiveness. But when the idea finally entered her mind, Parva began to think about how she would feel if she could forgive and let go. Could this emotional burden that she was carrying ever be lifted? Then one evening, Parva was sitting in her backyard when, for no reason, she began thinking about the good side of her mother. She realized that her mother wasn’t all bad and that she really did love her and took care of her the best way she knew how. She also realized that she herself turned out okay. When her perspective changed, she was able to forgive.

Wow! When we understand what forgiveness really means, that it is a choice we make, and that we can “change the channel” and see things differently, we can begin to release our emotional pain. Are we going to focus on the woundedness of that person, or are we going to see it more fully, recognize that there was goodness as well, and let that goodness stay with us? This is what Parva did.

Abusive Fathers and Judith’s story

Like Borderline mothers, toxic fathers can leave a long-term emotional and psychological impact through their consistently harmful and abusive behavior. This was Judith’s story. While she can now talk about her father with love in her heart, that wasn’t always the case. She grew up in a dysfunctional family with a father who was dominant and aggressive most of the time. Judith was never allowed to have emotions, and if any feelings slipped out, her father became angry, so her feelings were tucked away.

Judith’s mother felt so ashamed and depressed that she attempted to take her own life—but luckily, Judith was there to talk her out of it. At that time roles were reversed, and Judith became the caregiver for her mother, while also dealing with an absent father and caring for her younger siblings. The fighting in the house got so bad that Judith could only sleep with her headset on, listening to the heavy metal band Metallica as loud as she could. Things were so bad that she found the music calming!

When Judith was 25, her mother passed away after a long illness. Two years later Judith moved to Buenos Aires, and, although she didn’t speak the language yet, she needed to move away from the family drama. Finally having some time for herself, she began to experience anger within, the anger she had repressed for so many years. She tried to run it off, literally, starting with 5K runs, then 10K, 21K, and finally an entire marathon, but even at that finish line, she was still angry.

Judith realized that she finally had to face her anger and began asking herself questions. “Did I really think my father had bad intentions?” Her ego’s answer was, “Yes, of course, because otherwise, why would he have done this?” But then she lingered with the question a few days longer and had to admit to herself, “Nah, I don’t really think so, right?” He did the same thing with anybody else in the environment. Her father chased away everybody who loved him. So no, it wasn’t personal.

It took years, but at the moment when Judith felt like she had forgiven him, her mother showed up in a dream. She didn’t say anything, but her smile was saying everything, like, “It’s okay, Judith. I’m fine. I’m good. You can now let it go.”

The relationship with Judith’s father never became easy, because he didn’t change—but Judith did. She set clear boundaries to protect herself, and when new incidents would happen, Judith was able to forgive more quickly. At the end of her father’s life, Judith chose to take care of him, being true to herself in wanting to show him love before his passing.

From Failed Survival Strategies to Shared Humanity

These beautiful stories illustrate a pattern that seems to emerge with people. When we get angry, we sometimes deny the anger or run away from it. Unfortunately that trauma stays with you until you finally get to a point of saying, “Hey, it’s not going anywhere and I’m tired of this. Enough is enough. There has to be a better way.” This becomes that turning point for so many people.

Another issue is that we feel our hurt is something unique and special. We don’t recognize just how much suffering there is everywhere, and we exaggerate our own and minimize everyone else’s so we can stay stuck. And that is one of the biggest obstacles: we keep on telling this self-pitying, self-centered story over and over again, and we can keep it going for years and decades until something happens to shift the story.

This was so true for Judith. And at the same she felt the opposite: For years she minimized her own situation, hurt and suffering, since it was her “normal.” She saw everyone else’s hurt as way more serious. It took her years to see and admit that what happened wasn’t okay.

It is so easy to stay stuck in the victim role. We think, “I’m the innocent one here, you’re to blame.” Believing that we are innocent and morally superior is a major obstacle to our healing until we realize, no, we’re not so innocent either; we’re human; we make mistakes. Once we begin to acknowledge our humanness, we can begin to see that in other people, too.

What was most touching about these stories was how both Parva and Judith chose to take care of their parents in spite of their hurtful parenting. Both women held onto their humanity, what it means to be deeply human. Their actions were remarkable. The lesson is that you can be a very loving human being and still set appropriate boundaries. This kind of message is what can help heal this world. This is also at the heart of forgiveness. On the other side of forgiveness is peace and freedom—and when people get to the other side, that’s when they can look back and say, “My goodness, this journey was really worth it.”

To hear Parva and Judith’s story in their own words, check out my latest podcast episode, Healing Dysfunctional Families Through Compassion and Forgiveness. Subscribe to Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Healing Dysfunctional Families Through Compassion and Forgiveness

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In this moving and ultimately beautiful epsiode, two guests share intimate stories about growing up in dysfunctional families shaped by the emotional volatility of one parent — and the journey toward healing and forgiveness.

Parva Moshiri grew up with an unpredictable mother whose periodic tantrums and rages would ignite conflict and fear. As a child, Parva became the family’s mediator. As an adult, she became a caretaker for both parents and eventually a therapist herself. In this episode, Eileen and Fred work directly with Parva to help her take the first steps in her own forgiveness process.

Judith Janssen was raised by a father whose anger and dominance overshadowed family life, while her mother’s despair became so overwhelming that she attempted suicide when Judith was 11 years old. Judith would crank up Metallica in her headphones as a teenager to drown out the sound of their fighting. Over time, however, she discovered something unexpected: compassion for the father who had wounded her. Today, she looks back on her story with gratitude for the wisdom and resilience that helped shape her into the coach and facilitator she has become.

This episode offers a powerful reminder that forgiveness does not excuse harmful behavior. Rather, it can help us release old burdens, reclaim our own lives and find meaning even in the most difficult family histories.

Judith Janssen

Judith Janssen is an experienced trauma-informed coach and facilitator specializing in leadership development and forgiveness. Based on her own life journey, she built a business in 2009 called U-turn Coaching & Personal Development, including a profound forgiveness training called Letting Shit Go. Her focus is on helping people to overcome trauma, learn how to forgive, and treat themselves with love, kindness, and self-compassion. Connect with Judith at u-turncoaching.com.

Parva Moshiri

Parva Moshiri was born in Tehran and eventually moved to the United States to continue her education after completing high school in London. She has a master’s degree in education and psychology, has worked at the Department of Child and Family Services, and has had a private therapy practice.

Dr. Fred Luskin

Dr. Fred Luskin is the director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. He’s also the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Forgive for Good is the best-selling self-help book published on the topic of forgiveness. Fred has been interviewed hundreds of times in worldwide media, including The New York Times, O Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Huffington Post, and he has been featured on the Today Show and CBS Morning News. Learn more at fredluskin.com.

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timestamps

00:00 Stuck But Shifting Perspective

00:19 Welcome And Meet The Guests

03:13 Parva Childhood With Rage

05:59 Boundaries And Mother’s Death

08:05 What Forgiveness Means Now

10:07 Judith Dysfunctional Childhood

11:34 Caregiver Role And Loss

14:25 Escape To Buenos Aires

15:26 Anger Marathon Turning Point

16:30 Reframing And Forgiving Dad

18:40 Boundaries After Forgiveness

19:49 Patterns Victim To Hero

23:29 Victimhood And Moral Superiority

26:24 Repression And Self Forgiveness

29:08 Superpower Of Caring Love

31:09 Final Takeaways And Closing

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Conflicted Caregiving: Forgiving Illness

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Blood is thicker than water—and family also has the unique power to push all of our buttons. In this episode two guest share candidly about a beast rarely spoken of: resentment against ourselves or loved ones going through illness.

Karen Krebs is still working to forgive herself and her body through multiple rounds of cancer treatment and graciously accepts on-the-spot coaching from Fred and Eileen.

Barbara Hunt was finally able to overcome her stiff upper lip and emotional denial and recognize underlying resentment at caring for her aging mother. This set her on a path of becoming a forgiveness specialist herself.

This very special episode is inspiration for anyone in the middle of a forgiveness process, and in the end finding the beauty and balance between self-love and being a caretaker.

Karen Krebs

Karen Krebs is a healthcare executive with more than 30 years of experience in behavioral health and medicine, committed to helping individuals and families access treatment, begin recovery, and rebuild their lives. She brings a compassionate, informed perspective to navigating today’s complex healthcare system. With roots in New York and Massachusetts, Karen now resides in West Seattle, where she is a devoted caregiver to her 94-year-old father, who lives with her.

Barbara J Hunt

Barbara J Hunt is a forgiveness specialist and advocate, speaker, workshop leader, global peace visionary, award-winning and bestselling author of “Forgiveness Made Easy: The Revolutionary Guide to Moving Beyond Your Past and Truly Letting Go.” She has over 30 years experience in personal and spiritual development as a mentor, coach and group facilitator. She works in private practice internationally, and is also a musician and singer-songwriter. Connect with Barbara at forgivenessmadeeasy.co.uk and her YouTube channel.

Dr. Fred Luskin

Dr. Fred Luskin is the director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. He’s also the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Forgive for Good is the best-selling self-help book published on the topic of forgiveness. Fred has been interviewed hundreds of times in worldwide media, including The New York Times, O Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Huffington Post, and he has been featured on the Today Show and CBS Morning News. Learn more at fredluskin.com.

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timestamps

00:00 Emotional Shutdown

00:15 Season Two Welcome

00:55 Caregiving and Illness

01:25 Meet Karen and Barbara

02:52 Karen Cancer Wakeup Call

06:05 Caregiver Stress and Resentment

06:56 Self Forgiveness Struggle

09:32 Barbara Young Caregiver Story

11:06 Resentment and Forgiveness Path

12:29 Host Reflections on Caregiving

17:10 Choosing Caregiving

20:30 Tools for Self Forgiveness

21:53 Culture Duty and Boundaries

23:41 Resentment as a Signal

25:23 Freedom and Choice Reframing

27:38 Final Messages and Takeaways

32:46 Closing Thanks and Resources

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Forgiving Illness in Ourselves and Those We Love

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All of us at one point in our lives deal with illness, and for many, it could be a chronic illness or a life-threatening illness. For all of us, we will ultimately face an illness that brings us to the end of our lives. We may also be caregivers for someone dear to us who is grappling with an illness. I had the good fortune of talking to two beautiful women: Karen Krebs, a cancer survivor, and Barbara Hunt, who spent time as a caregiver to her mother as she was dealing with MS.

Karen Krebs’ Story

When Karen was diagnosed with cancer the first time around, it made her step back and recognize the importance of taking care of herself. She had been caring for her 91-year-old mother and now swore to her daughters and herself that she needed to be number 1. After taking a trip to Bali with some friends, Karen had an epiphany. She was going to move from Las Vegas to Seattle to be closer to her adult children and grandson, only to realize she needed to bring her 93-year-old father with her and become his caregiver. The vow to take care of herself first flew out the window. Cancer reared its ugly head once again. Karen, realizing she was still putting herself last, and now dealing with a second bout of cancer, became an emotional wreck. She felt she had failed her body and could not forgive, especially herself.

Cancer Patient Research: Guided Imagery and Music

Karen’s story rang true to me. My mother was dealing with cancer at the time I was in graduate school, working on my doctorate in psychology. Since cancer was such a big part of my life, I became very interested in understanding if there was a certain psychological make-up of individuals dealing with breast cancer. According to the research, there was a particular pattern: Women tended to put other people’s needs first, while often being out of touch with their own. I created what could be described as a musical Rorschach. I asked the study participants to describe the imagery they experienced while listening to music in a relaxed state. I wanted to see if I could differentiate cancer patients from the clinically depressed and the normal population to see if there was any difference in the imagery that was reported. In fact, there was a discernible difference. Cancer patients seem to have fewer images with less emotional content than the other two populations.

I continued to work with these women after the study using a process called Guided Imagery and Music (GIM). Over time, a common theme began to emerge. The women realized that they were so busy taking care of others that they neglected themselves, not recognizing that they even had needs of their own or how badly they had shortchanged themselves. As we began working more deeply, they realized they needed to learn to love and care for themselves, which meant there were times when it was okay not to put others first. For many, this became a very important journey to self forgiveness.

This was Karen’s story. She not only needed to learn how to forgive herself, she also realized that she did not create her cancer, that cancer was not her fault and that her biggest lesson was to stop blaming herself, especially for something that was out of her control.

Barbara Hunt and Her Mother

Barbara Hunt had a very different story. When Barbara was 15, her mother started to have symptoms of multiple sclerosis. By the time she was 18, her mother was in a wheelchair, and by the time Barbara was 20, she left her university to help at home. Barbara was helping with her mother’s basic functions, such as feeding her and helping her to the bathroom. In some regards, it was a bit of a shock for Barbara, and eventually she went back to her university, and her mother was taken to a nursing home, where she spent the last eight years of her life. Barbara felt like she had no mother, even though her mother was still alive.

A while later, Barbara was taking a personal training class, and one of the exercises was listing resentments. A thought crossed Barbara’s mind that she might be holding resentments towards her mother, and then she realized that instead of dealing with her mother’s illness, she shut down and was in emotional denial. She didn’t want to admit that, in fact, she did have resentment. That is what sent Barbara on a journey of forgiveness. Barbara realized that she felt that she wasn’t allowed to express her true feelings, that she had to be the dutiful daughter. This was similar to how Karen was feeling, taking care of her 94-year-old father.

Conflicted Caregiving

So how did both of these women overcome their obstacles to forgiveness, to forgive becoming ill, and for the conflicting emotions that we experience in caring for our loved ones?

What was missing in these narratives is that we have a choice. We don’t have to do something if there is a should or have to. The other side of the coin is when we choose to take care of another human being willingly; that is one of life’s most praiseworthy and noble qualities and needs to be honored. To spend time with someone who is in pain and unable to help themselves is one of the most profound ways to show love for another and can be a beautiful choice. This has so much to do with forgiveness, because once we’ve made a choice, it changes the way we feel about what we are doing. This is when a choice becomes a blessing. When you are clear about the choices you are making, the obstacles to forgiveness lessen.

We also need to look at the meaning we are giving to the event, to watch our thinking about what is taking place, all of which colors the way we feel. These are the cognitive and emotional pieces of our work. This is how we change our attitudes. And it is okay to set boundaries as a loving way to take care of yourself.

The Message in Resentment

It’s at the moment when we feel resentful that we need to remind ourselves of our choices. We can quiet ourselves, listen to our resentments, recognize that they are telling us something we need to hear, and, with that, we can make different choices. With unforgiveness, we make it seem as though we have fewer choices. Recognizing that we have a choice lessens unforgiveness.

This is where forgiveness becomes a spiritual pursuit. It makes us take stock of ourselves and look at our shadow side, recognizing how much is really coming from us. We need to be in the present moment to be aware of our feelings and take responsibility for the difficult things required of us. And to remember forgiveness is a master spiritual discipline and the secret to having a healthy and happy life.

To hear Karen’s and Barbara’s story in thier own words, check out my latest podcast episode, Conflicted Caregiving: Forgiving Illness. Subscribe to Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Forgiveness as the Doorway to Love

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“Your task is not to seek love, but merely to find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” —Rumi

How many of us have blocked off receiving love because of a need to protect ourselves? This is the theme of Lisa Angelini’s story of forgiveness, shared in this month’s podcast. Lisa had gone through a contentious divorce years ago and, more recently, an unexpected abandonment. As a result of these experiences, Lisa began to realize that she had not only blocked herself off from receiving romantic love but also blocked connections with others because of a need to protect herself from being hurt. Lisa also had an issue with trust—not only with other people but also with herself.

Insights From a Friend

After her divorce, Lisa was sitting with a friend when her friend said, “I don’t know who you are.” Lisa thought at the time that she was an open book: “Just the Italian girl from New York with a big personality.”

Her friend saw things differently: Thinking that you are open with a big personality is very different from being truly authentic and open-hearted. “Lisa, you have so many walls up, brick walls, big, big brick walls with barbed wire,” said her friend. “You have to let someone in.” The last thing Lisa wanted to hear from someone, especially when dealing with a painful moment in her life, is that maybe she should look at things differently. Yet, this is where her journey of forgiveness began. It was a journey that took some time and unfolded in many ways.

A Tale of Two Grandmothers

Growing up, Lisa—like many of us—didn’t have much modeling for forgiveness, but she certainly had modeling for what it looks like when there was unforgiveness. It was her fiery grandmother who first influenced the way she thought about forgiveness. When that grandmother divorced unexpectedly, she held onto resentment for a very long time, continually spewing negativity about her ex. For Lisa, that fire looked very powerful. This pants-wearing, go-get-’em grandmother felt good to Lisa. And that is who Lisa wanted to emulate. She didn’t know what true forgiveness looked like.

It was only when she started working through her own process that Lisa realized she didn’t want to hear any negativity, especially about her ex. She wanted to learn how to let go. She told others, “I’m healing. That’s the father of my children, and I’m going to leave it there as I work through this. That’s not helpful. People think it’s supportive to keep that energy going and add the fuel to the fire.” But for Lisa, it was a constant reminder of all the things and all the hurt that she no longer wanted to be connected to. Only now does Lisa recognize that her other grandmother, a sweet, forgiving, and spiritual woman, was a great teacher—though at the time she saw her kindness and ability to forgive as weakness rather than a source of power.

Yet Another Opportunity to Forgive

Forgiveness isn’t about one-and-done. Life brings on many opportunities for forgiveness, and for Lisa, more was yet to come. She entered into a relationship that suddenly took a hard left and turned her life upside down. It started out as a beautiful soul-connected relationship. Lisa’s spiritual home was Scotland, where he happened to live, and as things progressed over a couple of years, Lisa thought she would live there. And then it suddenly fell apart, seemingly in the snap of a finger.

Lisa didn’t know she’d get to practice forgiveness over and over again through life. She just thought you mastered it once, and that’s it. No, not so. Lisa was in shock, dealing with themes of betrayal and dishonesty. First, she wanted to make sense of things and rationally figure out what she missed—but there was no escaping the “messy middle,” the point in a forgiveness process where we acknowledge the emotional mess we find ourselves in.

Lisa expected that her spiritual practice, therapy and training would protect her from life, only to recognize that it was a form of defensiveness, a weapon against herself. Lisa knew forgiveness takes time, but she considered herself spiritually advanced, so she could get through this quickly. Surprise, surprise, that wasn’t the case. Lisa first denied that she was angry, but with help from a mentor over a three-day process, the anger began to erupt, uncovering the painful grief and all the emotional layers she needed to engage with to arrive at true forgiveness. When we’re honest with ourselves and work through all these layers, that’s where forgiveness isn’t just a pragmatic experience of letting go: It can become transformational. When we get to the point where we truly wish the other person well, we become free. And inside Lisa’s head, when she finally forgave this man, her mind became quieter, calmer, and more peaceful with much less thought.

Gems of Forgiveness

Perhaps learning to forgive is part of our life’s path. All of us have these experiences, and if we can learn from them, we may get a deeper sense of who we are and perhaps how we can really help others. As Nietzsche once said, “Amor fati.” Love your fate. None of us wants to go through painful experiences, yet if you can stick with the forgiveness process and get to the other side, you might just look back and realize there was a gem there.

For everyone, that gem will be different. It might be a deeper connection with your soul, that creative force outside us that can bring greater clarity and wisdom to our lives. You may learn to trust more and be more open to life. You may have a change of outlook, which helps you see people differently and more compassionately, especially for those who are going through similar struggles. And perhaps we grow in humility, accepting that we are human beings, and recognize there are things we’re all going to struggle with and that people do shocking things. If people could have done better, they would have, and when we can recognize that and accept it, we are given the greatest gift of all: learning about unconditional love. And that’s true peace.

To hear Lisa Angelini’s story in her own words, check out my latest podcast episode, “A Sudden Disorienting Heartbreak: Lisa Angelini.” Subscribe to Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Shedding the Victim Story: Lyndon Harris on Forgiveness After 9/11

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Welcome to Season 2 of Voices of Peace: Personal Forgiveness, with a new name, a new focus and a new co-host, Fred Luskin. Our first guest is Lyndon Harris. Lyndon was an Episcopal priest in New York City when his life after 9/11 fell apart. He dealt with PTSD, personal injustice, divorce, and losing his house — yet until he hit rock bottom, he never thought about forgiveness. When he finally did, forgiveness changed his life in the most amazing way.

Lyndon Harris

Lyndon Harris is a former Episcopal priest, whose journey toward forgiveness began in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. His work was covered widely in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and a host of others. But in the aftermath of 9/11, Lyndon’s life fell apart. Forgiveness became the essential tool for reclaiming his life. Harris is a forgiveness teacher now and has been invited to offer keynotes and workshops around the world. He is co-author, with Dr. Luskin of the Forgive for Good Recovery Workbook.

Learn more at lyndonharris.com

Pre-order Lyndon’s memoir, release date June 2026:

Forgiveness at Ground Zero: A Journey of Service, Loss, and Redemption after 9/11

Dr. Fred Luskin

Dr. Fred Luskin is the director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. He’s also the author of the bestselling books, Forgive for Good and Forgive for Love. Forgive for Good is the best-selling self-help book published on the topic of forgiveness. Fred has been interviewed hundreds of times in worldwide media, including The New York Times, O Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Huffington Post, and he has been featured on the Today Show and CBS Morning News. Learn more at fredluskin.com.

Dr. Eileen Borris

Dr. Eileen Borris is a clinical and political psychologist who has pioneered the concept of political forgiveness on the individual, community and national level. She has addressed the United Nations and has worked for over 30 years to build peace in areas of conflict around the world, including Rwanda, South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the Middle East. Eileen is the author of Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness and the creator of Healing the Divide, a program that trains leaders and other individuals interested in applying the principles of political forgiveness to transform their lives and create social change.

Be Part of Eileen’s Community

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness: Voices of Peace podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe to Political Forgiveness newsletter at drborris.com or on LinkedIn.

Eileen’s book: Finding Forgiveness: A 7 Step Program for Letting Go of Anger and Bitterness

Timestamps

00:00 Forgiving Imperfection

00:14 Season Two Kickoff

00:49 Meet Fred and Lyndon

02:55 Lyndon Before 9 11

04:40 Witnessing the Attacks

07:56 St. Pauls Relief Mission

09:16 Conflict and Resignation

12:31 Bitterness and Revenge

15:47 Life Falls Apart

18:47 Rock Bottom and Gratitude

22:31 Self Forgiveness Breakthrough

26:35 New Mission and Love

28:41 Advice for the Stuck

30:13 What Forgiveness Means Now

32:33 Closing and Resources

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